Topics in Minnesota Politics and Issues Forum
Summary
There are 22 posts — by 15 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Nancy L LaRoche at 12:23 UTC
From: Steven Clift Date: Apr 15 20:53 UTC Short link
See:
http://teapartymn.com/
April 15th, 2009 Tax Day Tea Party List (please click the city nearest
you for more details)
Austin, MN
Bemidji, MN
Brainerd, MN
Cook County (Grand Marais, MN)
Duluth, MN
Elbow Lake, MN
Fairmont, MN
Mankato, MN
Mille Lacs County (Milaca, MN)
North Branch, MN
Rochester, MN
Saint Cloud, MN
Slayton, MN (developing)
Steele County, (Owatonna, MN)
Twin Cities (Saint Paul, MN)
Willmar, MN (New!)
From: Mike Schoenberg Date: Apr 15 21:41 UTC Short link
And they are calling the activities at these parties "teabagging." Very
interesting.
Mike Schoenberg
St. Paul
▶
>From: Alan Maki Date: Apr 16 17:51 UTC Short link
Notice: I have created a blog for anyone who wants to comment on these "Tea
Parties." This blog includes the postings made on the "Tea Party" blog:
http://teapartypatriotism.blogspot.com/
An open letter to:
The organizers of the "Minnesota Tea Parties."
What kind of ideas do you people have if you are afraid to debate and fear
the ideas of others?
You are no better than, certainly no alternative to, Barack Obama and the
pathetic Democrats and the even more corrupt and disgraced Republicans.
Come on, put your ideas up against a real socialist.
I challenge you to hold debates in every one of the Minnesota communities
where you had your big-business/Wall Street financed "Tea Parties."
Just give me the dates and times and I will be there to debate any of you on
the issues you claim to be so concerned about.
It is easy for you to rant and rave against the perverted caricature of
socialism you have created without having to sit side by side with a
socialist and debate the issues.
Here I am. let's have at it. or are you afraid to put your ideas out where
they can be challenged in the "public square."
Alan L. Maki
Director of Organizing,
Midwest Casino Workers Organizing Council
Please Note: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
What I see in your Tea Party "movement" is:
1. racism
2. vicious anti-communism
3. warmongers
4. people sucked in by Wall Street
5. a gross distortion of "patriotism."
I would encourage all of you to read "Citizen Tom Paine" by Howard Fast and
his other historical novels on the American Revolution to get some kind of
basic grounding and understanding as to what constitutes fighting for
freedom, justice and liberty.
You really have a very shallow understanding of the issues.
For instance-
Why no mention of this "little" fact:
Our government is wasting trillions of dollars maintaining over 800 U.S.
military bases on foreign soil dotting the globe in countries where we have
no business when, instead, we should be establishing 800 public health care
centers spread out across the United States providing free health care for
everyone.
It is easy for you all to say things like you do using assumed names and
monikers. I am wondering if you would dare to say such pathetically stupid,
harmful and hurtful things if you had to sign your real names and provide
contact information?
I would challenge any of you to debate these issues: anytime, anyplace
anywhere.
Any takers?
Bak, bak, bak, bak, baaakkk, bak, bak, bak, baaaaakkkkkkkk.
Just a bunch of chicken shit patriots.
Give me a call if you can converse intelligently.
Alan L. Maki
218-386-2432
▶
Alan L. Maki
58891 County Road 13
Warroad, Minnesota 56763
Phone: 218-386-2432
Cell phone: 651-587-5541
E-mail:
Check out my blog:
Thoughts From Podunk
http://thepodunkblog.blogspot.com/
From: Lee Surma Date: Apr 16 18:23 UTC Short link
"Alan Maki"
> Come on, put your ideas up against a real socialist.
ROTFL! I'd probably pay money to see you go face to face
against Mitch Berg or some of the other Northern Alliance
Radio members or someone like Jason Lewis. I say probably
because I have no idea who you are and the ensuing verbal
pummeling could be as gruesome as a car accident. A while
back Liberal talk radio Neanderthal Ed Schultz went up
against Conservative talk radio host Michael Medved at a
live event here in town and it was like pairing a
featherweight against Mohamed Ali in his prime. Socialism
is pretty much indefensible when the facts are presented
in an open forum.
Lee Surma
Maple Grove
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:51:05 -0500
▶
"Alan Maki"
> Notice: I have created a blog for anyone who wants to
>comment on these "Tea
> Parties." This blog includes the postings made on the
>"Tea Party" blog:
>
> http://teapartypatriotism.blogspot.com/
>
>
> An open letter to:
>
> The organizers of the "Minnesota Tea Parties."
>
> What kind of ideas do you people have if you are afraid
>to debate and fear
> the ideas of others?
>
> You are no better than, certainly no alternative to,
>Barack Obama and the
> pathetic Democrats and the even more corrupt and
>disgraced Republicans.
>
> Come on, put your ideas up against a real socialist.
>
> I challenge you to hold debates in every one of the
>Minnesota communities
> where you had your big-business/Wall Street financed
>"Tea Parties."
>
> Just give me the dates and times and I will be there to
>debate any of you on
> the issues you claim to be so concerned about.
>
> It is easy for you to rant and rave against the
>perverted caricature of
> socialism you have created without having to sit side by
>side with a
> socialist and debate the issues.
>
> Here I am. let's have at it. or are you afraid to put
>your ideas out where
> they can be challenged in the "public square."
>
> Alan L. Maki
>
> Director of Organizing,
>
> Midwest Casino Workers Organizing Council
>
>
>
> Please Note: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
>
> What I see in your Tea Party "movement" is:
>
> 1. racism
> 2. vicious anti-communism
> 3. warmongers
> 4. people sucked in by Wall Street
> 5. a gross distortion of "patriotism."
>
> I would encourage all of you to read "Citizen Tom Paine"
>by Howard Fast and
> his other historical novels on the American Revolution
>to get some kind of
> basic grounding and understanding as to what constitutes
>fighting for
> freedom, justice and liberty.
>
> You really have a very shallow understanding of the
>issues.
>
>For instance-
>
> Why no mention of this "little" fact:
>
> Our government is wasting trillions of dollars
>maintaining over 800 U.S.
> military bases on foreign soil dotting the globe in
>countries where we have
> no business when, instead, we should be establishing 800
>public health care
> centers spread out across the United States providing
>free health care for
> everyone.
>
> It is easy for you all to say things like you do using
>assumed names and
> monikers. I am wondering if you would dare to say such
>pathetically stupid,
> harmful and hurtful things if you had to sign your real
>names and provide
> contact information?
>
> I would challenge any of you to debate these issues:
>anytime, anyplace
> anywhere.
>
> Any takers?
>
> Bak, bak, bak, bak, baaakkk, bak, bak, bak,
>baaaaakkkkkkkk.
>
> Just a bunch of chicken shit patriots.
>
> Give me a call if you can converse intelligently.
>
> Alan L. Maki
> 218-386-2432
>
>
>
>
>
> Alan L. Maki
>
> 58891 County Road 13
>
> Warroad, Minnesota 56763
>
> Phone: 218-386-2432
>
> Cell phone: 651-587-5541
>
> E-mail:
>
>
>
> Check out my blog:
>
>
>
> Thoughts From Podunk
>
>
>
> http://thepodunkblog.blogspot.com/
>
> Alan Maki
> Warroad
> Info about Alan Maki:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/alanmaki
>
> View all messages on this topic at:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2j43ySyJGipDJGxvc0YzgO
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> Complaints to:
Mr. Maki's post is out of compliance with the rules of the forum. He's been
reminded to follow the rules and cooperation from others regarding the rules
would be appreciated. If you have any questions or wish to discuss this
further, please do NOT reply to this thread but send me a private e-mail to
mn-politics-fm /symbol/ e-democracy.org
Rick Mons
Forum Manager, Minnesota Politics & Issues
From: Lee Surma Date: Apr 17 14:04 UTC Short link
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:54:39 -0500
"Alan Maki"
> Mr. Surma;
>
> Set up the debate... I will show you how "indefensible"
>socialist ideas are.
>
To update the list Mr. Maki and Mitch Berg, of the
Northern Alliance Radio Network,on AM1280 The Patriot in
the Twin Cities have been in contact and Mr. Maki is going
to try to call in sometime after 1 on Saturday as a caller
and not a scheduled guest. Unlike other forms of media,
Conservative talk radio types encourage opposing views to
call in so it's likely that Maki will get thru and on the
air.
Alan I don't know how much talk radio you have listened to
but there are certain unwritten rules you need to follow
to increase your air time. You don't get on and start
spewing a bunch of crap and talk over the host. I would
avoid personally attacking the host. You need to maintain
a dialog and answer the hosts questions, that's their
advantage by the way. You can't give a speech and not stop
talking. Good luck and I'm hoping for an enlightening
conversation. Perhaps you can sway some of the audience.
Lee Surma
Maple Grove
From: Joan Vanhala Date: Apr 20 14:06 UTC Short link
FYI...I am forwarding this article from the MN Indian Affairs list serve. Joan
Vanhala.....
Teabaggers misuse Indian imagery
Taking their orders from talk radio, a flock of sheep-like conservatives
protested on Tax Day. Dressing up as phony "patriots" and "Indians," they
dumped tea to complain about their loss of white privilege government spending
and bailouts.
Here's how stupid these protests were:
1) Obama isn't raising taxes except on those who earn more than $250,000.
Almost everyone at the protests will get a tax cut, not a tax increase. Stupid
#1.
2) The only reason Obama is bailing out the banking industry is because every
responsible economist and politician has said it's necessary. It's similar to
the bailout of the savings and loan industry under Reagan, which none of these
hypocrites protested. Stupid #2.
3) George W. Bush created the soaring national debt, the recession, and the
banking crisis with his ignorant economic policies, but none of the protesters
noted this. We've rarely been a better example of conservative hypocrisy. If a
Republican spends the government into debt, he's the second coming of Christ.
If a Democrat does it, he's Hitler incarnate. Stupid #3.
4) Obama continues to enjoy a popularity rating of 60-70%. But Fox News, the PR
arm of the Republican Party, gave the impression that most Americans are angry
at Obama. Implying that these protesters were more than a tiny minority was a
flat-out lie. Stupid #4.
5) "Teabagging" is a kinky sexual practice, so the protesters made themselves
into a national laughing stock by calling themselves "teabaggers." Stupid #5.
Since this protest was stupid and hypocritical--again, most people are getting
tax cuts and there was no word about Bush's responsibility--you have to wonder
what was really behind it.
For starters, conservatives were clearly crying because grumpy old McCain lost
the 2008 election to "that one"--i.e., the better man. That much is obvious.
The real question is how much of the protest was based on their fear and hatred
of a black man in the White House. A lot, I'd say. If there was a sincere bone
in the protesters' bodies, they'd blame the eight-year GOP hegemony, Wall
Street, and the banking industry for causing the problems. And not Obama for
trying to solve them.
The Indian aspect
A few protesters dressed up as Indians, presumably to emulate the faux Indians
at the original Boston Tea Party. They looked even stupider than the other
protesters.
If you can't read the text, the slogans say:
"On Warpath Against More Taxes!"
"Paleface Taxes Too High"
"Let Little Brave Keep Wampum"
These protesters are dressed in leathers and feathers like stereotypical
Indians. Their slogans are blatant stereotypes. They're stupid in almost every
way you can imagine.
Just as bad is this young dupe protester. One, you don't wear a chief's
headdress unless you're an Indian who has earned the privilege from your tribe.
Two, there weren't any Plains Indians at the Boston Tea Party. New Englanders
didn't know Plains Indians existed at the time.
And three--again--Obama isn't robbing any child unless he earned more than
$250,000 last year and stored the money in his piggy bank. Stupid, stupid,
stupid.
Dressing up as Indians is equivalent to emulating African Americans in
blackface. These people don't know or don't care that they're insulting
Indians. In short, they're typical conservatives.
Wrapping it up
Here's a clue, you stupid conservatives. If you don't like the way we're
running the country, elect your own candidate president. Oh, wait...you had a
chance to do that just five months ago. Americans roundly rejected your
approach to governing--preemptive wars, faith-based science, giveaways to the
rich, etc. They voted for intelligence and humility over stupidity and
arrogance.
If you can't wait until 2012, feel free to get the hell out of the country. The
US has lower taxes than almost every other industrialized nation, but maybe you
can find a lower-tax country somewhere. Maybe you can start your own tax-free
country on a desert island or Antarctica or somewhere. But quit whining like
whipped curs, you spoiled rotten losers. The majority has spoken and they want
Obama to clean up the mess Bush made by pooping in America's pants.
For more on the subject, see The Political Uses of Stereotypes.
Below: "We're racists and we don't care who knows it!"
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/04/teabaggers-misuse-indian-imagery.html
Laura Waterman Wittstock
President and CEO
Wittstock & Associates
blogs:
http://tinyurl.com/d7hy5p
cornplanter's revenge
From: Lee Surma Date: Apr 20 14:37 UTC Short link
Sorry but suggesting that we are racist makes it look like
you are the racist.
On point one. It's more about the outrageous wasteful
spending and political payoffs and believe me every
working American is going to eventually pay. Obama is out
spending Bush by a wide margin and a lot of the spending
is just plain stupid stuff. Also Cap and Trade and this
crazy declaration by the EPA will destroy our economy. The
only way my real out of pocket taxes will go down is when
I'm unemployed.
On number two it's how he's doing the bailout that is
disturbing. What they are doing now isn't even remotely
close to the S & L crisis.
On point three I don't know any conservatives who think
Bush did the right thing. Bush was acting like a loser
Democrat the last couple of years and has been a huge
disappointment. I'm glad McCain lost because he would have
been even worse.
On point four I think those popularity numbers are dubious
and there is no doubt that the majority of Americans are
mad at congress. Pelosi, Reid, Franke and the rest of the
thugs are mostly a big joke.
Lee Surma
Maple Grove
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:09:02 +1200 (NZST)
▶
>FYI...I am forwarding this article from the MN Indian
>Affairs list serve. Joan Vanhala.....
>
> Teabaggers misuse Indian imagery
>
> Taking their orders from talk radio, a flock of
>sheep-like conservatives protested on Tax Day. Dressing
>up as phony "patriots" and "Indians," they dumped tea to
>complain about their loss of white privilege government
>spending and bailouts.
>
> Here's how stupid these protests were:
>
> 1) Obama isn't raising taxes except on those who earn
>more than $250,000. Almost everyone at the protests will
>get a tax cut, not a tax increase. Stupid #1.
>
> 2) The only reason Obama is bailing out the banking
>industry is because every responsible economist and
>politician has said it's necessary. It's similar to the
>bailout of the savings and loan industry under Reagan,
>which none of these hypocrites protested. Stupid #2.
>
> 3) George W. Bush created the soaring national debt, the
>recession, and the banking crisis with his ignorant
>economic policies, but none of the protesters noted this.
>We've rarely been a better example of conservative
>hypocrisy. If a Republican spends the government into
>debt, he's the second coming of Christ. If a Democrat
>does it, he's Hitler incarnate. Stupid #3.
>
> 4) Obama continues to enjoy a popularity rating of
>60-70%. But Fox News, the PR arm of the Republican Party,
>gave the impression that most Americans are angry at
>Obama. Implying that these protesters were more than a
>tiny minority was a flat-out lie. Stupid #4.
>
> 5) "Teabagging" is a kinky sexual practice, so the
>protesters made themselves into a national laughing stock
>by calling themselves "teabaggers." Stupid #5.
>
> Since this protest was stupid and hypocritical--again,
>most people are getting tax cuts and there was no word
>about Bush's responsibility--you have to wonder what was
>really behind it.
>
>For starters, conservatives were clearly crying because
>grumpy old McCain lost the 2008 election to "that
>one"--i.e., the better man. That much is obvious.
>
> The real question is how much of the protest was based
>on their fear and hatred of a black man in the White
>House. A lot, I'd say. If there was a sincere bone in the
>protesters' bodies, they'd blame the eight-year GOP
>hegemony, Wall Street, and the banking industry for
>causing the problems. And not Obama for trying to solve
>them.
>
> The Indian aspect
>
> A few protesters dressed up as Indians, presumably to
>emulate the faux Indians at the original Boston Tea
>Party. They looked even stupider than the other
>protesters.
>
> If you can't read the text, the slogans say:
>
> "On Warpath Against More Taxes!"
> "Paleface Taxes Too High"
> "Let Little Brave Keep Wampum"
>
> These protesters are dressed in leathers and feathers
>like stereotypical Indians. Their slogans are blatant
>stereotypes. They're stupid in almost every way you can
>imagine.
>
> Just as bad is this young dupe protester. One, you don't
>wear a chief's headdress unless you're an Indian who has
>earned the privilege from your tribe. Two, there weren't
>any Plains Indians at the Boston Tea Party. New
>Englanders didn't know Plains Indians existed at the
>time.
>
> And three--again--Obama isn't robbing any child unless
>he earned more than $250,000 last year and stored the
>money in his piggy bank. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
>
> Dressing up as Indians is equivalent to emulating
>African Americans in blackface. These people don't know
>or don't care that they're insulting Indians. In short,
>they're typical conservatives.
>
> Wrapping it up
>
> Here's a clue, you stupid conservatives. If you don't
>like the way we're running the country, elect your own
>candidate president. Oh, wait...you had a chance to do
>that just five months ago. Americans roundly rejected
>your approach to governing--preemptive wars, faith-based
>science, giveaways to the rich, etc. They voted for
>intelligence and humility over stupidity and arrogance.
>
> If you can't wait until 2012, feel free to get the hell
>out of the country. The US has lower taxes than almost
>every other industrialized nation, but maybe you can find
>a lower-tax country somewhere. Maybe you can start your
>own tax-free country on a desert island or Antarctica or
>somewhere. But quit whining like whipped curs, you
>spoiled rotten losers. The majority has spoken and they
>want Obama to clean up the mess Bush made by pooping in
>America's pants.
>
>For more on the subject, see The Political Uses of
>Stereotypes.
>
> Below: "We're racists and we don't care who knows it!"
>
> http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/04/teabaggers-misuse-indian-imagery.html
>
> Laura Waterman Wittstock
> President and CEO
> Wittstock & Associates
> blogs:
> http://tinyurl.com/d7hy5p
> cornplanter's revenge
> Joan Vanhala
> Phillips, Minneapolis
> Info about Joan Vanhala:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/2tjdbtjS2TMoWBmnWj8CT9
>
>
> More information about Minnesota Politics and Issues
I don't know how dressing up like American Indians (unless you are
Indians) isn't racist. What cause or protest justifies this? I think
white Americans can make their points without disguising themselves
as another group. There does not seem to be anything wrong with being
white. Having a protest is not wrong either. But pretending to be
Indians is wrong.
▶
Laura
Minneapolis
Southeast/Como
On Apr 20, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Lee wrote:
> Sorry but suggesting that we are racist makes it look like
> you are the racist.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:09:02 +1200 (NZST)
>
>>
>> If you can't read the text, the slogans say:
>>
>> "On Warpath Against More Taxes!"
>> "Paleface Taxes Too High"
>> "Let Little Brave Keep Wampum"
>>
>> These protesters are dressed in leathers and feathers
>> like stereotypical Indians. Their slogans are blatant
>> stereotypes. They're stupid in almost every way you can
>> imagine.
>>
Laura Waterman Wittstock
President and CEO
Wittstock & Associates
913 19th Ave SE
Minneapolis, MN 55414
612-387-4915
blogs:
http://tinyurl.com/d7hy5p
cornplanter's revengeFrom: Marc Asch Date: Apr 20 17:30 UTC Short link
Laura Waterman Wittstock wrote:
> I don't know how dressing up like American Indians (unless you are
> Indians) isn't racist.
While it is clear that the protesters do not know or understand American
history, the symbolism they use or the terms they throw around, I do not
see the use of Indian dress by non-Indians as racist. Racism is a
serious problem. Labeling behavior as racist should be done when it is
racist, not when it is just plain silly.
Invoking the symbolism of the Boston Tea Party to protest spending bills
which have passed the Congress in the months after a major US election
which significantly changed the representation in Congress, and the
party of the President, is idiotic. The protesters may not like the
spending and may fear taxes to come, but this clearly was WITH
representation.
Unfortunately, the right wing is acting very much like a petulant child
or a seriously disturbed adult. The Economist (4/16/09), a conservative
British magazine, had a wonderful article Obama Derangement Syndrome on
the fixation of the radical right on Obama.
The right has never placed a high value on clarity of thought or facts
in their attacks but the obsession with Obama is taking us to new
heights. As the Economist suggests, and IMHO many of Lee's posts
reflect, obsessing about Obama and making over the top accusations which
the general public do not see a grounded in reality is pushing the
radical right into a smaller and smaller public space with is further
and further from the majority of the public.
▶
--
Marc Asch
34 North Oaks Road 651-484-9037
North Oaks, MN 55127
"Democracy is not a spectator sport."
Craig S. WilsonFrom:
Alan Maki Date: Apr 20 17:33 UTC Short link
Previously I asked a very basic and simple question:
"Why no mention of this "little" fact:
Our government is wasting trillions of dollars maintaining over 800 U.S.
military bases on foreign soil dotting the globe in countries where we have
no business when, instead, we should be establishing 800 public health care
centers spread out across the United States providing free health care for
everyone."
Here we have these Minnesota cities (sixteen in all) which have been targeted
for Tea Party activities.
They talk about the waste of tax-payer monies.
The biggest waste of tax-payer monies which is harming Minnesotans and all
Americans is spending to maintain more than 800 U.S. military bases on foreign
soil to protect Wall Street's interests.
Instead of this waste of human and other resources, we could be spending money
for 800 community public health care centers spread out across the United
States.
Minnesota--- as well as each other state--- would, coincidentally, get 16
public health care centers providing us all with free health care.
Minnesotans are paying a terrible price for the out-of-whack priorities in this
country.
So far, the Tea Parties held around Minnesota have ignored the cost of funding
800 U.S. military bases on foreign soil while they say they are for ending
government waste--- without being specific.
Most of the conservative talk radio hosts in Minnesota jumped forward saying
that they would debate me on this topic even though I issued the challenge to
debate to the organizers of these Tea Parties which leads me to conclude that
right-wing talk radio is the main promoter of these "Tea Parties."
My offer to debate any of the organizers or supporters of the Tea Parties in
each of these Minnesota cities still stands:
Austin, MN
Bemidji, MN
Brainerd, MN
Cook County (Grand Marais, MN)
Duluth, MN
Elbow Lake, MN
Fairmont, MN
Mankato, MN
Mille Lacs County (Milaca, MN)
North Branch, MN
Rochester, MN
Saint Cloud, MN
Slayton, MN (developing)
Steele County, (Owatonna, MN)
Twin Cities (Saint Paul, MN)
Willmar, MN (New!)
If anyone is up to providing Minnesotans with two alternative views (or more;
the more views the public gets the merrier) I am willing to participate in the
same kinds of debates we held across the state before the war in Iraq began.
Fair debates with the same rules applying to all participants with impartial
moderators.
Since the main emphasis of Tea Party organizers, activists and participants is
preventing socialism; it is only logical that any debates include a socialist
so people get both sides (and any other sides of the issues involved).
A suggestion:
Maybe e-democracy would like to sponsor the debates as a means of connecting
person to person in these communities--- this would contribute to promoting and
expanding democracy on-line and in the communities where people live, work and
recreate.
I do wish to apologize to anyone who was offended by my use of the term "tea
bagger;" I had no idea the reference was to some kind of lewd, gross sexual
act. It seems strange to me that the promoters of these events would have used
this term to describe themselves but now complain when others use this term to
refer to them.
My only intent in using the term "tea bagger" was to refer to those
participating in the Tea Parties as protests against socialism and progressive
reforms; nothing sinister or sleazy pertaining to any kind of sexuality was
intended. Again, my sincere apology.
Alan L. Maki
58891 County Road 13
Warroad, Minnesota 56763
Phone: 218-386-2432
Cell phone: 651-587-5541
E-mail:
Check out my blog:
Thoughts From Podunk
http://thepodunkblog.blogspot.com/
From: Rick Mons Date: Apr 20 18:31 UTC Short link
Sorry, folks, but the posts in this thread are essentially about national
issues and debates and off-topic. In order to post on this forum, you need
to keep the focus on Minnesota issues or, if it's a national issue, how
Minnesota and/or Minnesotans are affected by that issue.
A general discussion of the wisdom or folly of President Obama's stimulus
funding programs or budget, etc is national in scope. And while Minnesotans
will be generally affected by those stimulus programs and/or budget, so will
residents of other states.
Similarly, criticism or support of the Tea Parties in general are also more
national than state-wide oriented. If folks want to criticize or support
those events that were actually held in Minnesota, that's on-topic.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Regards,
Rick Mons
Forum Manager
From: Kristin Larsen Date: Apr 20 18:47 UTC Short link
I strongly disagree with this call - it is unnecessary, these occurred
all over MN and we are part of this.
We have to be more tolerant of the complexity and interlacing of
national and state issues.
I am a member of this team and I register my concern.
▶
Kristin
Rick Mons wrote:
> Sorry, folks, but the posts in this thread are essentially about national
> issues and debates and off-topic. In order to post on this forum, you need
> to keep the focus on Minnesota issues or, if it's a national issue, how
> Minnesota and/or Minnesotans are affected by that issue.
>
> A general discussion of the wisdom or folly of President Obama's stimulus
> funding programs or budget, etc is national in scope. And while Minnesotans
> will be generally affected by those stimulus programs and/or budget, so will
> residents of other states.
>
> Similarly, criticism or support of the Tea Parties in general are also more
> national than state-wide oriented. If folks want to criticize or support
> those events that were actually held in Minnesota, that's on-topic.
>
> Thanks for your cooperation.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Rick Mons
> Forum Manager
>
> Rick Mons
> Tanglewood n'hood, Shoreview
> Info about Rick Mons: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/rickmons
>
>From: Ronald Leurquin Date: Apr 20 18:56 UTC Short link
OK, I've been following this thread, and its not been very MN focused at all.
I have no doubt that these Tea things happened here in MN, but can we talk
about those particular events rather than the more generic discussion that's
been going on thus far?
I mean come on, if were going to talk about how stupid or whatever these
people are, can we at least talk about our own MN people?
I do wonder about the family values of any fine upstanding republican that
would take part in tea bagging. Isn't that really a behavior for male stripers
to be performing?
Ron Leurquin
Nokomis East
▶
From: Kristin Larsen Date: Apr 20 19:39 UTC Short link
1. To me racism is in the eye of the beholder. My recent experiences in
Northeastern Minnesota having to do with our tribes has taught me that if it
hits me as disparaging to a group, and more if it hits that group as
disparaging then it is racist. I listened to a person try to explain that
his behavior was not sexist, that the woman had just perceived it as such.
That is sort of the whole point - the things we do can be offensive and
knowing and being conscious of the impact of our behaviors is critical to
being a responsible person. so "Labeling behavior as racist should be done
when it is
racist, not when it is just plain silly." might want to read the quote
again from the Native American source to determine in who's eyes the
determination of what is racist is made. I recently listened to a long
discussion by our county board, I was not sure if what I heard was racist or
just mal informed but I did trust the Native American community's analysis
of it.
2. I believe the folks who did the teabagging here in Duluth were using what
was a hot issue/hot day to stage a protest for their side - which seems to
be the Grover Norquist drown the govt in the bathtub league. If we'd sat
around here on this listserv and figured out a cool day to have a protest
for the right wing and an issue they might flock around it seems like taxes
would be the likely one - this serves the purpose of giving everyone who
votes to eliminate services a big lovely bunch of quotes and numbers and
photos to point to to make their case. They are using National Media to
push a local action that is certainly going to be used to justify actions by
local politicians to cut government spending and avoid taxes - it already
has shown up as "I'm getting all this pressure from people to cut taxes"
yet only one speaker of this bent showed up at a recent gathering by county
officials to discuss our budget and he is the campaign chair of one of the
republican members of the board.
3. It is unfortunate that this was a bit of an astroturf passion play
rather than a genuine movement - had it been genuine it would have emerged
during the irresponsible build up of debt in our nation and not popped out
suddenly as the new administration is so obviously trying to cope with the
mess that it was left in a seemingly deliberate attempt to tie it's hands in
instituting it's reforms - and allow these cries of fiscal conservancy to
warble like fire alarms going off after Rome burned. Grover Norquist and
his ilk conducted this event - and I do not like it one iota. I strongly
support our new administration and look forward to new ways of doing things
and repaying the debt we've built up. I do not think it fair that the
previous admin was allowed to essentially empty the piggy bank and then
stand back and say the new admin can do nothing towards improving our nation
but must simply idle away it's years in power paying back their debts. If
our Governor is continuing to support the Norquist agenda (can anyone get
hold of the audio of him on the Grover Norquist show? I cannot find one)
and if local officials use this passion play to justify their agenda we need
to expose it for the false event it was.
Kristin
PS the link of the Teabaggers to Minnesota poltics is highly relevant and I
strongly oppose anyone insisting we not discuss it. Minnesota is not an
island and this is not an exclusively "national" event.
▶
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Marc Asch
> Laura Waterman Wittstock wrote:
> > I don't know how dressing up like American Indians (unless you are
> > Indians) isn't racist.
> While it is clear that the protesters do not know or understand American
> history, the symbolism they use or the terms they throw around, I do not
> see the use of Indian dress by non-Indians as racist. Racism is a
> serious problem. Labeling behavior as racist should be done when it is
> racist, not when it is just plain silly.
>
> Invoking the symbolism of the Boston Tea Party to protest spending bills
> which have passed the Congress in the months after a major US election
> which significantly changed the representation in Congress, and the
> party of the President, is idiotic. The protesters may not like the
> spending and may fear taxes to come, but this clearly was WITH
> representation.
>
> Unfortunately, the right wing is acting very much like a petulant child
> or a seriously disturbed adult. The Economist (4/16/09), a conservative
> British magazine, had a wonderful article Obama Derangement Syndrome on
> the fixation of the radical right on Obama.
>
> The right has never placed a high value on clarity of thought or facts
> in their attacks but the obsession with Obama is taking us to new
> heights. As the Economist suggests, and IMHO many of Lee's posts
> reflect, obsessing about Obama and making over the top accusations which
> the general public do not see a grounded in reality is pushing the
> radical right into a smaller and smaller public space with is further
> and further from the majority of the public.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Asch
> 34 North Oaks Road 651-484-9037
> North Oaks, MN 55127
>
> "Democracy is not a spectator sport."
> Craig S. Wilson
>
>
> Marc Asch
>
>From: Wizard Marks Date: Apr 20 20:33 UTC Short link
Kristin: "Minnesota is not an island and this is not an exclusively "national"
event."
Say on, Sister!
This is the nugget of the issue. How many people and in what positions of power
participated in these tea parties (without the decency, I might add, to use
drinkable tea. [Huff, huff, huff.])? The protest was 'full of sound and fury,'
'a tale told by an idiot', etc. But what's the guesstimate of the number of
idiots we are harboring in Minnesota?
From: Nancy L LaRoche Date: Apr 20 21:53 UTC Short link
Wow. Some of you writing here have put on a breath-takingl display of hatred of
anyone who might have a dissenting opinion other than your seminar leftist
views. I attended the tea party and found people angry at the overreach of
local and national government with spending and taxing. I saw no "Indian"
costumes. And the gay porn jokes here are tired and limp. Are you nervous that
a grass-roots movement produced more in St. Paul April 15 that all
paid-protester left-wing organizations could manage in the last 8 years?
We're not all right-wing extremists. And, we're not idiots. We're
freedom-loving people who just wanted to let our government know we don't agree
with them.
I am sorry that so many on this board display the hatred they attach the tea
party goers with. My advice: attend the May 2 rally and decide for yourself.
Try talking with us instead of name-calling. We don't bite.
From: DRQuam Date: Apr 20 21:55 UTC Short link
Over 2000 attended the Rochester event. They collected and donated over 1000
pounds of food for the local food banks. A couple of people dressed like the
patriots that dumped tea in Boston.
Donating to food banks is not the action of heartless idiots, like the many
name callers on this list seem to think.
Duane Quam Jr.
Byron, MN
▶
From: Alan Maki Date: Apr 20 22:24 UTC Short link
Yes, you want people to attend your "Tea Party" rallies but you exclude
those with a left view from speaking... wow! Real democratic.
Invite me to speak; I'll be there.
Alan L. Maki
58891 County Road 13
Warroad, Minnesota 56763
Phone: 218-386-2432
Cell phone: 651-587-5541
E-mail:
Check out my blog:
Thoughts From Podunk
http://thepodunkblog.blogspot.com/
▶
-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 4:54 PM
To:
Subject: [Minnesota] Tax Day Tea Parties Around Minnesota
Wow. Some of you writing here have put on a breath-takingl display of hatred
of anyone who might have a dissenting opinion other than your seminar
leftist views. I attended the tea party and found people angry at the
overreach of local and national government with spending and taxing. I saw
no "Indian" costumes. And the gay porn jokes here are tired and limp. Are
you nervous that a grass-roots movement produced more in St. Paul April 15
that all paid-protester left-wing organizations could manage in the last 8
years?
We're not all right-wing extremists. And, we're not idiots. We're
freedom-loving people who just wanted to let our government know we don't
agree with them.
I am sorry that so many on this board display the hatred they attach the tea
party goers with. My advice: attend the May 2 rally and decide for yourself.
Try talking with us instead of name-calling. We don't bite.
Nancy LaRoche
Inner Ring Suburb, Crystal
Info about Nancy L LaRoche: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/cathyceep
From: Ian Bicking Date: Apr 20 23:02 UTC Short link
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 3:33 PM, WIZARD MARKS
> Kristin: "Minnesota is not an island and this is not an exclusively
"national" event."
>
> Say on, Sister!
>
> This is the nugget of the issue. How many people and in what positions of
power participated in these tea parties (without the decency, I might add, to
use drinkable tea. [Huff, huff, huff.])? The protest was 'full of sound and
fury,' 'a tale told by an idiot', etc. But what's the guesstimate of the number
of idiots we are harboring in Minnesota?
What's the point of all this commentary? Couldn't you have just said:
"Does anyone know how many people attended the protests in Minnesota?
Were there any people in positions of power attending?"
This thread is full of people who maybe have a nugget of information
or substantiated opinion to pass on, but choose to couch it in
judgmental language. This is true on both sides, and it bodes very
badly for the health of this forum. You can judge people in your
heart all you want and that's fine, but frankly YOUR OPINIONS ALONE DO
NOT MATTER TO THIS FORUM. There are people here who might care *why*
you have these opinions, but this empty rhetoric is entirely useless.
This mailing list isn't a survey of public opinion.
From: Jessica Wicks Date: 00:06 UTC Short link
As one of those token gay folks out there, I might clarify to say
that teabagging is not just a gay sexual act, but has been mentioned
in certain heterosexual films prominently as well.
I don't agree with the tax protesters, especially since most of the
ones I saw covered in the media actually had a tax cut, not
increase. Nor do I think it is fair to mention rising deficits since
the same president urged Congress and in his budget made plans to
lower the deficit in future years. The current spending is in keeping
with economic rules that pulled us out of the Great Depression and
seems to be having some positive effects in the current recession.
When no one else is able to spend, then if the government does not,
the markets will crash. Economics 101.
I do appreciate the ideological divide that separates people like me
that believe the government does have a place in our lives vs those
who do not. I can agree to disagree there. That divide is as old as
this country and swings from one side to the other are integral parts
of our American history.
But let me address another thought. It always does my heart good to
see Americans standing up and using all the methods of messaging at
our disposal to carry our message forward. One reason the often used
terminologies of Fascist or even Socialist have little meaning in the
context they have been used is that every one of us is represented in
a Congress who can by our votes be removed from their job. Folks this
is democracy. A republican form of democracy, but democracy
nonetheless. I protested the war, and many of Bush's policies. I was
proud of what I was doing because it involved active participation in
this crazy democracy of ours.
So to all of you on the other side of the great divide, those who see
government at the Federal level as wrong and something to be
controlled, I applaud your efforts to share your feelings through
active democracy. I can point with pride to the citizens of Minnesota
who turned out for a cause they believed in, in a nation many fought
and died for, just to preserve the freedom to do what Minnesotans
turned out to do. Unlike the Boston tea party, there were no
gendarmes ready to mow you down. You turned out and said your piece.
I was likewise heartened that in one locale at least people used the
opportunity to use the occasion to make donations to food banks. The
liberal side of our democracy also does that sort of thing at times
and it is a wonderful way to not only speak your mind, but help
others too.
One other thought. I may differ in opinion from my Minnesota
neighbors who self label as Conservative or Libertarian or whatever.
Heck I often differ with my closest liberal friends. I feel as
strongly about my position as they do about theirs. But that does
not prevent us, if we choose, to respect each other and our
differences. If there was one thing I would change, given the
opportunity it is this. We in Minnesota, liberals and conservatives
are united in one thing. That would be of course our humanity. We
all go to the bathroom, have our hopes and fears, loves and regrets.
I came here originally from Texas and some of my close friendships
and even family back there includes what would be termed "rednecks"
in most place. We find what we agree on rather than dwell on what we
disagree.
Fact is there are good people everywhere. But if we persist in this
ongoing game of divide and destroy politics and if we cannot find
what we have in common rather than what separates us, then the
American democracy and Minnesota's with it will go down in flames, a
failure for future generations to study.
In my short time here (9 years now) I've come to love Minnesota and
it is now very much my home. One thing I like about it is the way
people engage in their politics. In rugged individualistic Texas
there is not nearly so much of that going on. So carry on with tea
parties or whatever else you need to do. Honor my right to do the
same. In respect we can find common ground. And agree to disagree
where we don't. It is clear we do need to talk to each other, since
misunderstanding of the left seems as rampant as misunderstanding of
the right.
Jessica Wicks
Sheridan, NE Mpls
▶
From: Nancy L LaRoche Date: 07:23 CDT Short link
Alan wrote: "Yes, you want people to attend your "Tea Party" rallies but you
exclude those with a left view from speaking... wow! Real democratic.
Invite me to speak; I'll be there."
Alan: Do you leftist protesters pass their bullhorns and allow the other side
to speak at their rallies? I've attended some anti-war protests and had great
conversations with those opposed to my views. I didn't demand the microphone.
In fact, at one three years ago I made friends with a homeless Native American
who was given an anti-war sign to carry. After we talked for a while, he put
his sign down and picked up a flag. That's what democracy is - the right to
have differing opinions and discuss openly with others. You seem to want to
dismiss and shut up those who disagree.
Come out and talk with us May 2. Try to understand our side face to face.
Again, we don't bite.
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